[Lex Computer & Tech Group/LCTG] ufo
Ted Kochanski
tedpkphd at gmail.com
Wed Feb 15 14:15:37 PST 2023
All,
The nice thing about an electrically powered laser -- if you miss -- just
squeeze the trigger again [essentially each round is free] -- with the
exception of burning some jet fuel you can keep shooting
Ted
On Wed, Feb 15, 2023 at 1:37 PM Stephen Parus <sparus at umich.edu> wrote:
> [image: GettyImages-53380294.jpg]
>
> Why the U.S. used missiles, not cheap bullets, to shoot down Chinese
> balloon, 3 unidentified objects
> <https://theweek.com/us-military/1021008/why-the-us-used-missiles-not-cheap-bullets-to-shoot-down-chinese-balloon-3>
> theweek.com
> <https://theweek.com/us-military/1021008/why-the-us-used-missiles-not-cheap-bullets-to-shoot-down-chinese-balloon-3>
>
> <https://theweek.com/us-military/1021008/why-the-us-used-missiles-not-cheap-bullets-to-shoot-down-chinese-balloon-3>
>
> Steve
>
> On Feb 15, 2023, at 9:59 AM, Ted Kochanski <tedpkphd at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> All,
>
> Its more complicated -- in a vacuum yes the spreading is easily predictable
>
> However in a gas with enough power the laser beam can essentially make a
> "virtual fiber optic" by the heating of the air in the core changing the
> index of refraction of the beam
> If the power density is really high the air will "breakdown" and the core
> of the path will be ionized gas changing everything you heard about in
> grade school physics
>
> Ted
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 15, 2023 at 8:53 AM Wayne Sharfin <wsharfin at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Yes, all beams will spread from diffraction. If the beam is extremely
>> powerful then it may not need to focused as much. The farfield
>> diffraction half-angle is ~ wavelength/(diameter of beam waist). For a
>> Gaussian laser beam the "diameter" is taken to be pi x beam radius where
>> the beam radius is measured when the intensity has dropped to 1/e2 of the
>> maximum.
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 15, 2023 at 8:30 AM <jjrudy1 at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> A beam of light, even a coherent one, spreads with distance. The
>>> balloon was 60000 feet in the air and not likely directly over the
>>> shooter. Assume that it would not work. This is a defensive machine to
>>> protect an airbase, say
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Steve Isenberg <smisenberg at gmail.com>
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 14, 2023 11:54 PM
>>> *To:* jjrudy1 at comcast.net
>>> *Cc:* Michael Alexander <mna.ma at yahoo.com>; carllazarus at comcast.net;
>>> Ted Kochanski <tedpkphd at gmail.com>; Drew King <dking65 at kingconsulting.us>;
>>> Lex Computer Group <lctg at lists.toku.us>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Lex Computer & Tech Group/LCTG] ufo
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So it could be that it might have been effective but they decided not to
>>> use it to keep its capability secret, right?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 10:14 PM <jjrudy1 at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Classified power and distance
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Michael Alexander <mna.ma at yahoo.com>
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 14, 2023 10:09 PM
>>> *To:* jjrudy1 at comcast.net; carllazarus at comcast.net; 'Ted Kochanski' <
>>> tedpkphd at gmail.com>; 'Drew King' <dking65 at kingconsulting.us>
>>> *Cc:* 'Steve Isenberg' <smisenberg at gmail.com>; 'Lex Computer Group' <
>>> lctg at lists.toku.us>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Lex Computer & Tech Group/LCTG] ufo
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> • I’m not surprised that the laser system could shoot down drones.
>>> However, the article omitted info about the laser-drone distances at which
>>> the system was effective*.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> • Shooting down mortar shells: The article omits details about the
>>> test. Did the system know, ahead of time, where the mortar shell came from
>>> (in the real world, it wouldn’t)? How wide an area can the system protect?*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> – Mike Alexander
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> * I wouldn’t be surprised if the answers were classified, and
>>> reasonably so.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, February 14, 2023, 5:32 PM, jjrudy1 at comcast.net wrote:
>>>
>>> Raytheon is building a product (might already be in production) to take
>>> down drones and blind some incoming stuff.
>>> https://www.designdevelopmenttoday.com/industries/military/news/22236190/raytheon-shoots-down-drones-mortars-with-highenergy-laser#:~:text=The%20DE%20M%2DSHORAD%20effort,soldiers%20against%20various%20aerial%20threats.&text=Raytheon%20Intelligence%20%26%20Space's%20high%2Denergy,military%20missions%20and%20civil%20defense
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It is ground-based and of course the beam spreads over distance
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* LCTG <lctg-bounces+jjrudy1=comcast.net at lists.toku.us> *On
>>> Behalf Of *carllazarus at comcast.net
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 14, 2023 5:26 PM
>>> *To:* 'Ted Kochanski' <tedpkphd at gmail.com>; 'Drew King' <
>>> dking65 at kingconsulting.us>
>>> *Cc:* 'Steve Isenberg' <smisenberg at gmail.com>; 'Lex Computer Group' <
>>> lctg at lists.toku.us>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Lex Computer & Tech Group/LCTG] ufo
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks, Ted. The big fusion announcement by DOE of generating 3
>>> megajoules from input of 2 megajoules delivered to the target was
>>> underwhelming because they used 300 megajoules to power the laser. If they
>>> can achieve the needed factor of 150 improvement in the laser then the
>>> airborne laser should be a cinch. 😊
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Carl
>>>
>>> *From:* LCTG <lctg-bounces+carllazarus=comcast.net at lists.toku.us> *On
>>> Behalf Of *Ted Kochanski
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 14, 2023 4:07 PM
>>> *To:* Drew King <dking65 at kingconsulting.us>
>>> *Cc:* Steve Isenberg <smisenberg at gmail.com>; Lex Computer Group <
>>> lctg at lists.toku.us>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Lex Computer & Tech Group/LCTG] ufo
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> All,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The good folks at the Missile Defense Agency will have to stand in for
>>> Acme-Laser
>>>
>>> from a relatively recent article
>>>
>>> Return Of The ABL? Missile Defense Agency Works On Laser Drone
>>>
>>> By SYDNEY J. FREEDBERG JR.
>>> on August 17, 2015 at 4:00 AM
>>>
>>>
>>> https://breakingdefense.com/2015/08/return-of-the-abl-missile-defense-agency-works-on-laser-drone/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> HUNTSVILLE, ALA.: Three years after the Missile Defense Agency
>>> mothballed its massive Airborne Laser, MDA is planning to reboot the
>>> concept for a new era.
>>>
>>> The old ABL was Boeing 747 with a human crew and tanks of toxic
>>> chemicals to generate power. The new idea a high-altitude, long-endurance
>>> drone armed with a more compact electrically powered laser...
>>> “The problem with boost phase is…you’ve got to get close enough,” Frank
>>> Kendall, the Pentagon’s procurement chief, told reporters at the Space &
>>> Missile Defense conference here...” But if you’re close enough to shoot at
>>> a rocket right after it launches from enemy territory, you’re probably
>>> close enough for the enemy to shoot you...The Missile Defense Agency will
>>> take an “incremental, step-wise, knowledge-based” approach this time,
>>> pledged the MDA director, Vice Adm. James Syring, in remarks to the
>>> Huntsville conference. “It is a very different approach than we did in the
>>> past of just leaping to something and investing everything we had.”... MDA
>>> will conduct experiments and review alternatives until 2018-2019, when
>>> Syring said it will pick “which technologies we think have the most
>>> promise.” Then a “low-power laser demonstrator” will fly circa 2021. When
>>> the full-power system will enter service is an open question, not answered
>>> in Syring’s brief... In a successful 2010 test, ABL shot down a ballistic
>>> missile “tens of kilometers” away, Syring said, using about a megawatt of
>>> power. For the illustrative concept of operations the MDA director briefed
>>> at the conference — which he emphasized was not the only option — “we need
>>> to be hundreds of kilometers [from the target] in a platform that can go
>>> much higher and stay up for much longer.”...The manned Airborne Laser maxed
>>> out at an altitude of about 40,000 feet, where clouds and turbulence made
>>> it harder to keep the beam on the target. “65,000 feet is where we think we
>>> need to be,” said Syring, where the air is so thin that a laser beam can
>>> reach much farther...What matters is not just maximum power, but how much
>>> weight it takes to generate (power density), especially when you’re trying
>>> to fit the laser on an aircraft. The Airborne Laser took 55 kilograms
>>> (about 120 pounds) to generate a kilowatt of laser power, Syring said,
>>> which is why a megawatt (1,000 kW) took a 747. Electric lasers currently in
>>> the lab take 35-40 kilograms per kilowatt, and the MDA research program
>>> plans to drive that down by a factor of ten, to 3-5 kg/kW. MDA’s ultimate
>>> goal is 2 kg/kW, which would make a one-megawatt weight 5,000 pounds,
>>> something a drone could carry... “If it had been easy we would done it by
>>> now,” Syring said. But given the rapid progress in laser technology, he
>>> went on, “it’s not a huge reach.”... Unlike a manned aircraft whose crew
>>> must land and rest, a drone can stay aloft for 24 hours or more. Unlike a
>>> chemically powered laser, or conventional missiles and guns for that
>>> matter, an electric laser can keep firing as long as the aircraft’s
>>> generators are running. A mid-air refueling both keeps the drone flying and
>>> “reloads” its ability to generate power for the laser. The combination of
>>> unmanned endurance and unlimited shots means a single drone could stay on
>>> station for days, instead of needing multiple manned aircraft to come and
>>> go in rotation...What’s more, an electrical laser can dial its power up and
>>> down for different targets at different ranges...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> “Thinking of this as a ballistic missile killer may be too narrow,”
>>> Gunzinger [ laser expert and advocate at the Center for Strategic and
>>> Budgetary Assessments ] said. If MDA can actually solve the boost-phase
>>> intercept problem, hard as that is, it will have built a laser-armed
>>> aircraft that’s lethally adaptable to other missions as well.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So perhaps there is something in the works at MDA which will eventually
>>> be able to shoot down balloons at 20 to 30 km
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ted
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 2:28 PM Drew King <dking65 at kingconsulting.us>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm thinking the government has no contacts at Acme laser cannon Corp.
>>> Where oh where is Wile E. Coyote?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2/14/2023 2:19 PM, Steve Isenberg wrote:
>>>
>>> Mike,
>>>
>>> I'm thinking that the balloon could have been punctured (by laser or
>>> cannon), this could have been done around when it was first discovered.
>>> They could have analyzed the drifting and punctured the balloon when its
>>> descent would have had the least likelihood of causing damage when it met
>>> the ground.
>>>
>>> So this would be long before it passed over to the Atlantic; and in fact
>>> helicopters could have monitored its descent and pinpointed it once it hit
>>> ground.
>>>
>>> -steve
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 1:35 PM Michael Alexander <mna.ma at yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Steve,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What you may be missing (although its importance may be debatable) is
>>> that if somehow one ‘pricked’ the balloon, it would continue to drift
>>> ‘horizontally’ for some distance. It would land farther from shore, in
>>> deeper water, and be harder to retrieve.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> — Mike Alexander
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, February 14, 2023, 1:00 PM, Ted Kochanski <
>>> tedpkphd at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Balloon seems to be white -- so probably not that easy to "poke a hole"
>>> with a laser -- you need to get a fair amount of power onto the balloon
>>> MW/sq m and hold it there for enough time to evaporate the plastic
>>>
>>> We have some R&D tech that could do that at the right kind of range --
>>> but it might not be in the right place to be used because of the curvature
>>> of the earth
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cannon fire from a fighter would seem to be the best approach
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ted
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>> From: *Steve Isenberg* <smisenberg at gmail.com>
>>> Date: Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 12:40 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Lex Computer & Tech Group/LCTG] ufo
>>> To: Robert Primak <bobprimak at yahoo.com>
>>> Cc: Lex Computer Group <lctg at lists.toku.us>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So they shot down the balloon with a missile, it totally deflated, and
>>> fell into the water where they have to search to find it, and the impact
>>> with the water may have damaged things.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Did anyone consider: Poke a hole in the balloon (using a laser perhaps)
>>> that would cause it to descend rather than fall rapidly to the ground.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> (Or am I missing something?)
>>>
>>> -steve
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 11:46 AM Robert Primak <bobprimak at yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Current terms: UAP = Unidentified Aerial Phenomenon. IAP = Identified
>>> Aerial Phenomenon.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Current status of balloons = deflated. (Formerly known as "shot down".)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Bob Primak
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 10:54:27 AM EST, <jjrudy1 at comcast.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <image001.png>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> John Rudy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 781-861-0402
>>>
>>> 781-718-8334 cell
>>>
>>> 13 Hawthorne Lane
>>>
>>> Bedford MA
>>>
>>> jjrudy1 at comcast.net
>>>
>>> <image002.png>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>> --
>>> Drew King
>>>
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