<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto">My 2 cents,<div>the real issue is what to do about warming on a cost benefit basis.</div><div>most experts agree there is some man made warming which is bad for is all. </div><div>they may argue about the degree of warming.. how fast its moving etc. </div><div><br></div><div>the real problem is how far and how fast to go to go in trying to curtail it. </div><div><br></div><div>If we really switched over to serious use of nuclear power ,and natural gas </div><div>instead of so much oil and coal and continued the solar and wind efforts and EV efforts we could vastly cut emissions at a cost that would not kill the economy of the richer nations and would not badly hamper the development of the poorer nations. </div><div><br></div><div>This is not so much science as engineering and economics… and common sense. </div><div><br></div><div>right now myths about the dangers of nuclear power, and myths about how fast we can transition away from fossil fuels without busting our economy or keeping the poor countries poor ( which they will refuse do ) prevent us from moving toward a serious warming mitigation using more nuclear power and natural gas until solar and wind are able to economically replace oil and coal and later on natural gas. </div><div><br></div><div>this above is the real issue our politicians face.</div><div><br></div><div>extremists on one pole say there is no warming problem at all.. and on the other pole the end of the world is near and we must stop fossil fuels now even if the rich countries go bust and the poor stay poor . </div><div><br></div><div>sadly we have solutions available to take a moderate path to solving global warming</div><div>but they aren't being followed because of myths and extremists on both sides. </div><div><br></div><div>There are signs the myths are being overcome. pelosi just ,changed course and said , hey, maybe we should look harder at nuclear..and the french are rethinking shutting down nuclear plamts.. so maybe the pols will finally do the right thing . </div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div> </div><div><br></div><div> </div><div><br><br><div dir="ltr">Sent from my iPad</div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On Jul 21, 2022, at 1:35 PM, Stephen Quatrano <stefanoq@gmail.com> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">Jerry, <div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I get what you are saying. Theories that explain the evidence are absolutely a matter of debate in the scientific community. And it’s certainly true about what should be DONE about climate change, which is not a scientific question at all. But with respect to the evidence itself, especially in a case like this, I think there is still a LOT we can say in order to push back on a post-modern kind of view where everyone is entitled to their own facts as well as their own opinions. Furthermore, in this case, I think there’s evidence that this data set in particular is being used in bad faith — abused in other words — to undermine public confidence in science.</div><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">This satellite data is not a set of “alternative facts” that are ignored by the scientific community. It doesn’t even contradict warming that has been observed unless you cherry pick the data. (Why are we looking at the last 18 years?) On the contrary, the overall dataset confirms the fact that the planet is warming, first of all. And second, this data set is PART of the empirical data we use to understand what is happening to our planet. And finally, on its own, it does not falsify an overwhelming, global consensus on the fact of climate change and attribution models that can ONLY account for observed changes when we consider the effects of human activity.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">All you need to do to verify these three claims is search the scientific record for the dataset. Voila! You find it!! Someone more skilled than I am with familiarity and access to original scientific research can do it even better than I have, no doubt. I’d love to see and learn more about this dataset!</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">This is pretty far from my own expertise but I have invested quite a bit of time into both the history and philosophy of science in order to understand “how we know what we know”. I’ve learned to take a deep breath and ask some important questions before engaging in unproductive debate on science and pseudoscience. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">For example, my first question is: “What exactly is this data set?” I try hard to actually be interested in the data and interested in learning. Why not? It’s cool.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">And my second question is: “If it is legit, and if it does contradict other data, is it actually being ignored by scientists (which is what is being implied by the controversy)? Is it being hidden or covered up? Or perhaps it’s actually being used in their models?” </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Does anyone else notice that these questions are not asked by those who are sowing doubt? And they surely don’t make explicit claims that scientists have ignored or tried to cover up the contradictory data. Why not? Because they can be investigated pretty easily. And if you look, you’ll find out that ALL of the legitimate data is being used by the community, not just those “convenient” datapoints that support some kind of bogus theory.<br class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I used Google for literally 5 minutes and found these pretty interesting looking arguments that engage with the data, the actual data, NOT ALTERNATIVE FACTS, and explain that it IS being used and HOW it’s being used and WHY.</div><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><a href="https://skepticalscience.com/Response-Data-or-Dogma-hearing.html" class="">https://skepticalscience.com/Response-Data-or-Dogma-hearing.html</a></div></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><a href="https://skepticalscience.com/print.php?r=466" class="">https://skepticalscience.com/print.php?r=466</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">“What-about-ism” is a plague on our open society and rational public discourse. It’s a problem that all you need to do to cast doubt on hard won consensus after years of debate and vital institutions, is to throw data that seems to contradict conventional wisdom and ask questions like these: “What about the 'Latest Global Average Tropospheric Temperatures’ data set from satellites?”</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Even I experience a kind of knee-jerk, visceral response to this question. I feel myself asking, “Yeah! What ABOUT that contradictory data?” Dang!</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">You see, it’s just too easy to cast doubt and undermine confidence like this. And it’s really, freakin hard to build trust.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Stepping back, I notice that the record of scientific literature DOES consider these measurements, dare I call them “facts." There are no alternative facts. The prevailing models MUST account for all observations, including these. And sure enough, these very datasets are clearly referenced in the literature.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Meanwhile, notice that the opposite does NOT happen. In other words, nowhere in the “alternative” or “pseudoscience” world are the real academic debates on these supposedly “alternative facts” actually referenced. It’s a one-sided argument where science engages it’s critics but it’s critics then ignore those legitimate responses to their attacks. They repeat themselves. Or they move on. They don’t actually debate the issue: they just cast doubt on the entire endeavor.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I call this “bad faith” or pseudo-discourse. It’s not, in fact, a conversation at all.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Unfortunately, this creates a lot of collateral damage as well. It affects our confidence and public trust in EVERYTHING.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">SQ</div><div class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jul 21, 2022, at 12:15 PM, Jerry Harris <<a href="mailto:jerryharri@gmail.com" class="">jerryharri@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Peter, <div class="">I disagree. The climate change debate shows us that alternative facts have been created and used to support pre-determined conclusions. The latest example recently shared on this list was that global warming is on "pause" and CO2 increase is not the cause of climate change. (<a href="https://www.drroyspencer.com/latest-global-temperatures/" class="">https://www.drroyspencer.com/latest-global-temperatures/</a>)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Even in situations where the facts are agreed upon by all parties, there can be plenty of alternative conclusions. Sometimes these are positive and progressive, eg, the scientific method where a new theory is proposed based on existing data. Sometimes there is incorrect or flawed reasoning (e.g., stupidity) that is used to reach a different conclusion. And sometimes, there are belief- or ideologically-driven conclusions where the data and reasoning chain only serves as means to an end. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">This gets me back to conspiracy theorists. Dismissing them as either "stupid" or "fact-deprived" ignores the harm they can cause through disinformation amplification and brainwashing. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I know this is typical over-thinking of a simple cartoon, but this is why I feel the cartoon is timelessly funny, IMO. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Jerry</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Jul 21, 2022 at 11:21 AM <<a href="mailto:palbin24@yahoo.com" class="">palbin24@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto" class="">Fortunately in science “alternate facts” do not exist.<br class=""><br class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Peter</div><div dir="ltr" class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class="">On Jul 21, 2022, at 11:11 AM, <a href="mailto:carllazarus@comcast.net" target="_blank" class="">carllazarus@comcast.net</a> wrote:<br class=""><br class=""></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">Facts don’t matter to conspiracy theorists.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in" class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class="">From:</b> LCTG <lctg-bounces+carllazarus=<a href="mailto:comcast.net@lists.toku.us" target="_blank" class="">comcast.net@lists.toku.us</a>> <b class="">On Behalf Of </b>Jerry Harris<br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b> Thursday, July 21, 2022 8:30 AM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b> john rudy <<a href="mailto:jjrudy1@comcast.net" target="_blank" class="">jjrudy1@comcast.net</a>><br class=""><b class="">Cc:</b> Lex Computer Group <<a href="mailto:LCTG@lists.toku.us" target="_blank" class="">LCTG@lists.toku.us</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b> Re: [Lex Computer & Tech Group/LCTG] science<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">If only conspiracy theories or disinformation campaigns could be so easily refuted with facts. <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><div class=""><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Jul 20, 2022 at 10:58 AM john rudy <<a href="mailto:jjrudy1@comcast.net" target="_blank" class="">jjrudy1@comcast.net</a>> wrote:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p></div><blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div class=""><image001.png></div><u class=""></u><u class=""></u><div class=""><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal">===============================================<br class="">::The Lexington Computer and Technology Group Mailing List::<br class="">Reply goes to sender only; 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