<div dir="ltr">Michael & All<div><br></div><div>Measuring the fusion output energy for Laser Inertial Confinement is not so trivial -- there is no calorimeter</div><div>When you fuse D-T in a Laser ICF system everything happens really fast and most of what is known is based on code</div><div><br></div><div><ol><li>First you have 192 beams of IR photons from the output of the flashlamp pumped Nd glass Final Amplifiers]</li><li>Each of those 192 separate beams is then upconverted with some losses from the IR to the UV</li><li>The UV beams enter the test chamber [10m dia] and then enter the Hohlraumn from the two ends [at several angles from the axis] </li><li>The clock starts at 0+ ns -- the input pulse is over at about 8ns with the bulk of the UV energy delivered in less than 5 nsec [from about 3 to 8 ns]</li><li>The UV photons strike the inner surface of the Gold plated depleted Uranium hohlraum [roughly a cylinder]</li><li>The Au vaporizes and then is heated further to become a plasma at about [300 ev or about 3M C] </li><li> The Au plasma at 300 eV emits soft x-rays inward -- the depleted U is there just to keep the Au plasma from expanding too quickly</li></ol></div><div><div>In the center of the Holhlraum there is a hollow spherical diamond target capsule [about 1 mm dia] containing D-T as gases or cryo-gas frost frost on the inner surface of the capsule</div><div>The outer surface of the target capsule is coated to absorb the soft x-ray flux</div><div><br></div><div> 8. The ablating surface expands and the core of the capsule reacts by imploding compressing the fusion fuel to enormous density and heating it enough to start fusing first D-T and the later D-D</div><div> all the above happens about 9 ns after the start of the laser pulse</div></div><div><br></div><div>basically the above [from 6 to is very similar to the Teller-Ulam design for the first true Thermonuclear Devices except the x rays come from the U or Pu Fission Trigger explosion</div><div><br></div><div>fusing lasts for a fraction of a ns</div><div>fast D-T and then slightly slower D-D neutrons escape outward</div><div>they are preceded by gamma rays and x-rays </div><div>and followed by escaping alpha particles</div><div>finally there is mechanical motion of the remnants of the experiment capsule and hohlraum</div><div>all this is confined with a 10 m dia evacuated chamber</div><div><br></div><div>Lots of detectors located around the target chamber and some within it measure neutrons, x-rays, alpha particles and do some imaging </div><div>All the data then is fed into a massive hydrodynamic simulation [same as used for weapons test and verification]</div><div>Output power is calculated by the simulation calibrated by measured neutron flux and spectra and some measurements of compression [hard x ray imaging]</div><div><br></div><div>In reality the only hard numbers are P[of the Xenon flash lamps used to pump the Nd glass final amplifiers] and some measure of the output laser power [tapped off the laser final amplifiers and upconverters]</div><div><br></div><div>see for example</div><div> Experiments conducted in the burning plasma
regime with inertial fusion implosions
J. S. Ross1,∗
, J. E. Ralph1,∗
, A. B. Zylstra1,∗
, A. L. Kritcher1
, H. F. Robey2
, C. V. Young1
, O. A. Hurricane1
,...................</div><div><a href="https://arxiv.org/pdf/2111.04640.pdf">https://arxiv.org/pdf/2111.04640.pdf</a><br></div><div><br></div><div> nature nature physics letters article<br></div>Letter<br>Open Access<br>Published: 26 January 2022<br>Design of inertial fusion implosions reaching the burning plasma regime<br>A. L. Kritcher, C. V. Young, H. F. Robey, C. R. Weber, A. B. Zylstra, O. A. Hurricane, D. A. Callahan, J. E. Ralph, J. S. Ross, K. L. Baker, D. T. Casey, D. S. Clark, T. Döppner, L. Divol, M. Hohenberger, L. Berzak Hopkins, S. Le Pape, N. B. Meezan, A. Pak, P. K. Patel, R. Tommasini, S. J. Ali, P. A. Amendt, L. J. Atherton, …G. B. Zimmerman <div><br></div><div><a href="https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1741-4326/ab1ecf/pdf">https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1741-4326/ab1ecf/pdf</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>A lot of the above is "kinda take it at face value" since neither the raw data from the diagnostics nor the code are available [as they have a huge overlap with the weapons stewardship efforts]</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Ted</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Dec 18, 2022 at 2:11 PM Michael Alexander <<a href="mailto:mna.ma@yahoo.com" target="_blank">mna.ma@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>
Mitch - Good for the WSJ, giving perspective beyond the hype. Same for Physics Today (less surprising, given its audience).<div><br></div><div>Question: How did LLNL measure (quantitatively) the fusion output energy? I may have missed a description.</div><div><br></div><div> – Mike Alexander<br><br><br><p style="font-size:15px;color:rgb(113,95,250);padding-top:15px;margin-top:0px">On Sunday, December 18, 2022, 9:19 AM, Mitchell I. Wolfe <<a href="mailto:mwolfe@vinebrook.com" target="_blank">mwolfe@vinebrook.com</a>> wrote:</p><blockquote><div id="m_5207830741395003424m_718410832236304577yiv6720076718"><div>
<p>The WSJ had a <a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" href="https://www.wsj.com/articles/when-will-fusion-be-ready-for-prime-time-watch-these-three-numbers-11671159158?st=38p8tjeiybncyrb&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink" target="_blank">recent article</a> about this. They differentiated between the scientific break-even (achieved), the engineering break-even (not even close), and the economic break-even.</p>
<p>-- Mitch</p>
<p id="m_5207830741395003424m_718410832236304577yiv6720076718reply-intro">On 2022-12-13 18:45, Ted Kochanski wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding:0px 0.4em;border-left:2px solid rgb(16,16,255);margin:0px">
<div id="m_5207830741395003424m_718410832236304577yiv6720076718replybody1">
<div dir="ltr">George
<div> </div>
<div>Yes -- the pump energy was between 300 and 400 MJ</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Ted</div>
</div>
<br clear="none">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 5:49 PM George Gamota <<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" href="mailto:ggamota@stma-llc.com" target="_blank">ggamota@stma-llc.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p><span style="font-size:14pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">They omitted to include the energy used to pump the lasers, which in magnitude was much larger than the output.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:18pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p><strong>From:</strong> LCTG <lctg-bounces+ggamota=<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" href="mailto:stma-llc.com@lists.toku.us" target="_blank">stma-llc.com@lists.toku.us</a>> <strong>On Behalf Of </strong><a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" href="mailto:carllazarus@comcast.net" target="_blank">carllazarus@comcast.net</a><br clear="none"><strong>Sent:</strong> Tuesday, December 13, 2022 4:02 PM<br clear="none"><strong>To:</strong> 'Ted Kochanski' <<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" href="mailto:tedpkphd@gmail.com" target="_blank">tedpkphd@gmail.com</a>>; 'Drew King' <<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" href="mailto:dking65@kingconsulting.us" target="_blank">dking65@kingconsulting.us</a>><br clear="none"><strong>Cc:</strong> 'Lex Computer Group' <<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" href="mailto:lctg@lists.toku.us" target="_blank">lctg@lists.toku.us</a>><br clear="none"><strong>Subject:</strong> Re: [Lex Computer & Tech Group/LCTG] Nuclear fusion...<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p>I read that "<span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Lato,sans-serif;color:black;background:white">The LLNL said a team at its National Ignition Facility (NIF) conducted the first controlled fusion experiment in history on December 5, achieving what is known as "scientific energy breakeven."</span>"<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>What is counted in "scientific energy" and what does it omit?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p>-- Carl<u></u><u></u></p>
<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p><strong>From:</strong> LCTG <<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" href="mailto:lctg-bounces+carllazarus=comcast.net@lists.toku.us" target="_blank">lctg-bounces+carllazarus=comcast.net@lists.toku.us</a>> <strong>On Behalf Of </strong>Ted Kochanski<br clear="none"><strong>Sent:</strong> Monday, December 12, 2022 7:32 PM<br clear="none"><strong>To:</strong> Drew King (<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" href="mailto:dking65@kingconsulting.us" target="_blank">dking65@kingconsulting.us</a>) <<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" href="mailto:dking65@kingconsulting.us" target="_blank">dking65@kingconsulting.us</a>><br clear="none"><strong>Cc:</strong> Lex Computer Group <<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" href="mailto:lctg@lists.toku.us" target="_blank">lctg@lists.toku.us</a>><br clear="none"><strong>Subject:</strong> Re: [Lex Computer & Tech Group/LCTG] Nuclear fusion...<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p>All,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Be careful about Hype versus simple reality<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Yes it does appear that LLNL National Ignition Facility may have hammered a poor defenseless target pellet into producing more fusion energy than was absorbed by the pellet<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p>so technically Q>1 [about 1.2]<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p>BUT -- and I'll admit a bias toward Magnetic Confinement Fusion -- the Energy used to produce the Energy delivered to the pellet was not part of the calculation<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p>While Magnetic Fusion with Superconducting Magnets in a Tokamak configuration probably need Q>2 to be a credible Eureka Moment -- The energy needed to fire the lasers probably needs a Q>30<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Ted<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p>On Mon, Dec 12, 2022 at 5:30 PM Drew King (<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" href="mailto:dking65@kingconsulting.us" target="_blank">dking65@kingconsulting.us</a>) <<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" href="mailto:dking65@kingconsulting.us" target="_blank">dking65@kingconsulting.us</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12pt">All,<br clear="none"><br clear="none">The Verge: A "scientific breakthrough" in nuclear fusion? How to watch the announcement tomorrow.<br clear="none"><a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" href="https://www.theverge.com/2022/12/12/23505416/nuclear-fusion-scientific-breakthrough-how-to-watch-announcement-biden" target="_blank">https://www.theverge.com/2022/12/12/23505416/nuclear-fusion-scientific-breakthrough-how-to-watch-announcement-biden</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12pt">-- <br clear="none">Drew King<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p>===============================================<br clear="none">::The Lexington Computer and Technology Group Mailing List::<br clear="none">Reply goes to sender only; Reply All to send to list.<br clear="none">Send to the list: <a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" href="mailto:LCTG@lists.toku.us" target="_blank">LCTG@lists.toku.us</a> Message archives: <a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" href="http://lists.toku.us/pipermail/lctg-toku.us/" target="_blank">http://lists.toku.us/pipermail/lctg-toku.us/</a><br clear="none">To subscribe: email <a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" href="mailto:lctg-subscribe@toku.us" target="_blank">lctg-subscribe@toku.us</a> To unsubscribe: email <a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" href="mailto:lctg-unsubscribe@toku.us" target="_blank">lctg-unsubscribe@toku.us</a><br clear="none">Future and Past meeting information: <a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" href="http://LCTG.toku.us" target="_blank">http://LCTG.toku.us</a><br clear="none">List information: <a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" href="http://lists.toku.us/listinfo.cgi/lctg-toku.us" target="_blank">http://lists.toku.us/listinfo.cgi/lctg-toku.us</a><br clear="none">This message was sent to <a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" href="mailto:tedpkphd@gmail.com" target="_blank">tedpkphd@gmail.com</a>.<br clear="none">Set your list options: <a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" href="http://lists.toku.us/options.cgi/lctg-toku.us/tedpkphd@gmail.com" target="_blank">http://lists.toku.us/options.cgi/lctg-toku.us/tedpkphd@gmail.com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<br clear="none">
<div style="margin:0px;padding:0px;font-family:monospace">===============================================<br clear="none">::The Lexington Computer and Technology Group Mailing List::<br clear="none">Reply goes to sender only; Reply All to send to list.<br clear="none">Send to the list: <a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" href="mailto:LCTG@lists.toku.us" target="_blank">LCTG@lists.toku.us</a> Message archives: <a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" href="http://lists.toku.us/pipermail/lctg-toku.us/" target="_blank">http://lists.toku.us/pipermail/lctg-toku.us/</a><br clear="none">To subscribe: email <a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" href="mailto:lctg-subscribe@toku.us" target="_blank">lctg-subscribe@toku.us</a> To unsubscribe: email <a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" href="mailto:lctg-unsubscribe@toku.us" target="_blank">lctg-unsubscribe@toku.us</a><br clear="none">Future and Past meeting information: <a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" href="http://LCTG.toku.us" target="_blank">http://LCTG.toku.us</a><br clear="none">List information: <a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" href="http://lists.toku.us/listinfo.cgi/lctg-toku.us" target="_blank">http://lists.toku.us/listinfo.cgi/lctg-toku.us</a><br clear="none">This message was sent to <a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" href="mailto:mwolfe@vinebrook.com" target="_blank">mwolfe@vinebrook.com</a>.<div id="m_5207830741395003424m_718410832236304577yiv6720076718yqtfd74091"><br clear="none">Set your list options: </div><a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" href="http://lists.toku.us/options.cgi/lctg-toku.us/mwolfe@vinebrook.com" target="_blank">http://lists.toku.us/options.cgi/lctg-toku.us/mwolfe@vinebrook.com</a></div><div id="m_5207830741395003424m_718410832236304577yiv6720076718yqtfd15966">
</div></blockquote><div id="m_5207830741395003424m_718410832236304577yiv6720076718yqtfd48717">
<p><br clear="none"></p>
</div></div></div><div id="m_5207830741395003424m_718410832236304577yqtfd44448">===============================================<br clear="none">::The Lexington Computer and Technology Group Mailing List::<br clear="none">Reply goes to sender only; Reply All to send to list.<br clear="none">Send to the list: <a shape="rect" href="mailto:LCTG@lists.toku.us" target="_blank">LCTG@lists.toku.us</a> Message archives: <a shape="rect" href="http://lists.toku.us/pipermail/lctg-toku.us/" target="_blank">http://lists.toku.us/pipermail/lctg-toku.us/</a><br clear="none">To subscribe: email <a shape="rect" href="mailto:lctg-subscribe@toku.us" target="_blank">lctg-subscribe@toku.us</a> To unsubscribe: email <a shape="rect" href="mailto:lctg-unsubscribe@toku.us" target="_blank">lctg-unsubscribe@toku.us</a><br clear="none">Future and Past meeting information: <a shape="rect" href="http://LCTG.toku.us" target="_blank">http://LCTG.toku.us</a><br clear="none">List information: <a shape="rect" href="http://lists.toku.us/listinfo.cgi/lctg-toku.us" target="_blank">http://lists.toku.us/listinfo.cgi/lctg-toku.us</a><br clear="none">This message was sent to <a shape="rect" href="mailto:mna.ma@yahoo.com." target="_blank">mna.ma@yahoo.com.</a><br clear="none">Set your list options: <a shape="rect" href="http://lists.toku.us/options.cgi/lctg-toku.us/mna.ma@yahoo.com" target="_blank">http://lists.toku.us/options.cgi/lctg-toku.us/mna.ma@yahoo.com</a><br clear="none"></div><blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></div>
</div></blockquote></div>