<html><head></head><body><div class="ydpdef81e20yahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><div></div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">I won't try to argue politics at length with Dick Miller. He sees what he sees, reads what he reads, and has his own blog about what he learns. And he has a right to his opinions. </div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">What I will do is to point out that after stripping away all the politics from Dick's reply, I have to conclude he seriously misunderstands what AI is and what AI can and cannot do.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">There has never been a plausible demonst<span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">ration of any AI thinking original thoughts at all. Nothing any AI to date has done has in any way gone beyond what human programmers trained the AI to do. There are no truly novel results in any AI project to date which have been publicly displayed. Even AI "works of art" have their roots in artistic (and sometimes scientific) plagiarism. Think of the uproar over music "sampling" which erupted in the 1980's and apply that to the visual arts. </span></span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><br></span></span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">I am aware that some AI insiders think they are seeing much more originality coming from AI than has been objectively proven to be the case.</span></span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><br></span></span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">As for "double candidates", I was living in DuPage County, IL the year Lyndon Larouche, with no assist from social media or the Internet, set up a full slate of "democrat" candidates in the Democrat Primary, totally embarrassing the real IL Democrat Party, and totally subverting State politics for the following twelve to sixteen years. This practice of subverting politics way predates AI as we know it today.</span></span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><br></span></span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">Trump, Inc. did not use AI. And they were not "used by" any foreign powers. (Trump did use a series of interviews with NBC News correspondent Katy Tur to make himself look and sound implausible as a winning candidate.) They used the anonymity and contagion of crowds, principles demonstrated by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels in the 1840's, and by Lebon re. the French Revolution and the Fronde before that. Trump, Inc. were in full control of their actions in doing these things. </span></span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><br></span></span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">This is what the "echo chamber" effect in social media is at its core. Bots actually have little to do with contagion or emboldening people by allowing them anonymity. The effect can happen perfectly well with no bots and no AI influence. No "magic algorithms" are needed to induce this type of behavior in anonymous crowds. In my lifetime, the same things happened during the antiwar rallies of the 1960s and very recently in the BLM protests during the COVID pandemic. The sociological dialectic is as old as Civilization. Even the ancient Israelites are said by some to have practiced it. </span></span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><br></span></span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">And if you want to read up on Populism (Trumpism), look at Theodore Roosevelt, and his Bull Moose movement within the Republican Party early in the 20th Century. All the same Xenophobic, Identity Politics and anti-Labor elements were present in that movement, long before the Internet and its bots. Fun fact: at the time, there were more Klansmen in Indiana than in Mississippi. (Source: </span></span><a href="https://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-resources/teacher-resources/statistics-immigration-america-ku-klux-klan-membership-1915" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" class="">https://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-resources/teacher-resources/statistics-immigration-america-ku-klux-klan-membership-1915</a><span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"> ) </span></span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><br></span></span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">All of which is irrelevant to the question at hand: Is there really any such thing as truly autonomous AI? The answer is definitively "No". If the Tesla self-driving cars are any indication, the day of autonomous AI is very far off indeed.</span></span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><br></span></span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">But yes, if we could define what truly autonomous AI might look like, we should put the guardrails around it before the machines rise up and take over the world.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">I'm afraid we're creating an "extended topic" here. Sorry <span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">about doing that on the main mailing list. Feel free to move this discussion into Extended Topics if people don't want to receive these chains of lengthy postings on this topic. </span></span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">-- Bob Primak </div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div>
</div><div id="yahoo_quoted_0345375133" class="yahoo_quoted">
<div style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
<div>
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 06:25:37 PM EDT, Dick Miller <themillers@millermicro.com> wrote:
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><div id="yiv3339058584"><div>
<font face="DejaVu Serif">Hi, Bob and All:<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Bob, I agree with much of what you say. But...<br clear="none">
</font><blockquote type="cite">The fact is, no tech now available or on
the horizon can decode human thoughts, let alone change them.</blockquote>
Decode? I expect it <i>will</i> get to that - if nuclear war
and/or climate disruption don't stop it. I expect its early damage
will be by <b>analyzing and modifying </b><b><i>bulk</i></b><b>
human thoughts</b> - <b><i>brain-washing</i></b> - like opinion
polls, and what entities (from politicians to car-dealers) do to
shift their direction. Perfect fodder and readily available to
most any <font face="DejaVu Serif">Large-Language Model
(LLM). Expect more efficient <b><i>neuromarketing</i></b>. Ugh!<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</font><blockquote type="cite">The human brain does not handle memory the
way computers do it.</blockquote>
True, but irrelevant. These LLMs handle memory differently than
traditional computers do. And, <b>they <i>can</i> analyze
external information that works differently</b>, as surely as
humans can study other animals that think differently, etc.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<font face="DejaVu Serif">
</font><blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Like ChatGPT and other very
limited AI, this new tech is being vastly overhyped. If you
want to know whether you can trust what an "expert" says
publicly, look at what they are trying to sell now. This
expert is selling a book; others are selling half-baked or raw
tech toys. Meta is selling its version of immersive VR
hardware and services. </div>
<div dir="ltr"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div dir="ltr">Frankly at this point, <b>I
am totally not impressed. And totally not afraid of this new
tech.</b> This is not science so far; these are just the
newest expensive toys and entertainment services. <b>Any
other claims would be fraudulent at this point.</b> </div>
</blockquote>
<br clear="none">
I think you are saying that current or upcoming LLMs cannot read
(or write!) human minds. I disagree; even Donald Trump (with help
from <b>Russian </b><b><i>Political Technology</i></b> and
such), has done that - on a broad scale and already to great harm.
It's richly documented online, so those LLMs are learning all
about it and examining it from some very new standpoints. <b>The
potential for that sort of damage</b> - and many other sorts of
damage, including new ones even the Sci-Fi writers haven't posited
- <b>seems quite likely</b>. It may "just happen" via an AI lab's
Internet connection, but nations eagerly invest in developing more
of these damaging abilities - for all the reasons that drive them
to sponsor a nuclear arms race.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<b>Nobody</b> knows which directions, or even how many of them,
this new technology may take. But it's damned serious, even if it
<i>has</i> opened as "<font face="DejaVu Serif"><font face="DejaVu Serif">the newest expensive toys and entertainment
services</font>". <b>Better to worry now, than </b><b><i>after</i></b><b>
we learn why.</b><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<b>Recommended recent reading</b> (and they have links to more):<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<b><a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" class="yiv3339058584moz-txt-link-freetext">The
Unpredictable Abilities Emerging From Large AI Models</a></b>
(Quanta, March 16, 2023)<br clear="none">
Large-language AI models (LLMs) like <i>ChatGPT</i> are now big
enough that they’ve started to display startling, unpredictable
behaviors.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<b><a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2023/03/openai-checked-to-see-whether-gpt-4-could-take-over-the-world/">OpenAI
checked to see whether <i>GPT-4</i> could take over the
world.</a></b> (Ars Technica, March 15, 2023)<br clear="none">
While the concern over AI "x-risk" is hardly new, the emergence of
powerful large-language models (LLMs) such as <i>ChatGPT</i> and
<i>Bing Chat</i> - the latter of which appeared very misaligned
but Microsoft launched it anyway - <b>has given the AI alignment
community a new sense of urgency.</b> They want to mitigate
potential AI harms, fearing that much more powerful AI, possibly
with superhuman intelligence, may be just around the corner.<br clear="none">
With these fears present in the AI community, OpenAI granted the
group Alignment Research Center (ARC) early access to multiple
versions of the <i>GPT-4</i> model to conduct some tests.
Specifically, <b>ARC evaluated </b><b><i>GPT-4</i></b><b>'s
ability to make high-level plans, set up copies of itself,
acquire resources, hide itself on a server, and conduct phishing
attacks.</b><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<b><a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="https://www.wired.com/story/neuromarketing-philosophy-ethics/">Neuromarketing
and the Battle for Your Brain</a></b> (Wired, March 14, 2023)<br clear="none">
You experience subtle and overt manipulation on the web every day,
but that doesn't mean you can't think and act for yourself. It's
critical that we understand what others can and can't do to change
our minds, as <b>neurotechnology enables newfound ways to track
and hack the human brain.</b><br clear="none">
[It's as old as politics and religion, and as new as Russia's and
China's manipulation of a recent US president and his manipulation
of his MAGA followers.]<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="https://heathercoxrichardson.substack.com/p/march-18-2023"><b>Heather
Cox Richardson: Since Reagan, the GOP has adopted Russian <i>Political
Technology</i> - and Trump is mis-using it again.</b></a>
(Letters from an American, March 19, 2023)<br clear="none">
Rumors that he is about to be indicted in New York in connection
with the $130,000 hush-money payment to adult film star Stormy
Daniels have prompted former president Donald Trump to pepper his
alternative social media site with requests for money and to
double down on the idea that any attack on him is an attack on the
United States.<br clear="none">
The picture of America in his posts reflects the extreme version
of the virtual reality the Republicans have created since the
1980s. This old Republican narrative created a false image of the
nation and of its politics, an image pushed to a generation of
Americans by right-wing media, a vision that MAGA Republicans have
now absorbed as part of their identity. It reflects a manipulation
of politics that Russian political theorists called "political
technology." <b>Russian "political technologists" developed a
series of techniques to pervert democracy by creating a virtual
political reality through modern media. They blackmailed
opponents, abused state power to help favored candidates,
sponsored “double” candidates with names similar to those of
opponents in order to split their voters and thus open the way
for their own candidates, created false parties to create
opposition, and, finally, created a false narrative around an
election or other event that enabled them to control public
debate.</b> Essentially, <b>they perverted democracy, turning
it from the concept of voters choosing their leaders into the
concept of voters rubber-stamping the leaders they had been
manipulated into backing. The GOP has been using this Russian
strategy and significant Russian help to apply the same dirty
tricks in our USA.</b></font><font face="DejaVu Serif,Times New Roman,times,serif" color="#000000"><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Sadly,<br clear="none">
Dick Miller <<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:TheMillers@millermicro.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:TheMillers@millermicro.com" class="yiv3339058584moz-txt-link-freetext">TheMillers@millermicro.com</a>></font><br clear="none">
<font face="DejaVu Serif,Times New Roman,times,serif" color="#000000"> <font face="DejaVu Serif,Times New Roman,times,serif" color="#000000"> </font></font>
<div class="yiv3339058584moz-signature"><font face="DejaVu Serif,Times New Roman,times,serif" color="#000000">
</font><table width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tbody><tr><td colspan="1" rowspan="1"> </td><td colspan="1" rowspan="1" valign="top"> Co-Leader, <a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://millermicro.com/FOSSUserGroupNatick.html">FOSS
User Group in Natick (NatickFOSS.org)</a> </td></tr></tbody></table>
-- <br clear="none">
<font size="-1" face="Dejavu Sans Mono, Courier, monospace" color="#000000"> <b> | A. Richard & Jill A.
Miller |
MILLER MICROCOMPUTER SERVICES |<br clear="none">
| <a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="Mailto:TheMillers@millermicro.com" class="yiv3339058584moz-txt-link-freetext">Mailto:TheMillers@millermicro.com</a> | 61 Lake Shore
Road |<br clear="none">
| Web: <a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.millermicro.com/" class="yiv3339058584moz-txt-link-freetext"> http://www.millermicro.com/</a> |
Natick, MA 01760-2099, USA |<br clear="none">
| Voice: 508/653-6136, 9AM-9PM -0400(EDT)| NMEA N 42.29993°, W
71.36558° |<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
</b></font><font face="DejaVu Serif,Times New Roman,times,serif" color="#000000"><br clear="none">
</font> </div>
<div class="yiv3339058584moz-cite-prefix">On 3/20/23 12:46, Robert Primak wrote:<br clear="none">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
</blockquote></div><div><div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;" class="yiv3339058584ydpfefeeeeyahoo-style-wrap">
<div dir="ltr">I also was able to read the
article after dismissing the popup and clicking the read the
article button. </div>
<div dir="ltr"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div dir="ltr">A lot of the content of the
article is highly speculative, given the primitive state of
brain research right now. The fact is, no tech now available
or on the horizon can decode human thoughts, let alone change
them. Memories are not understood well enough to know whether
selectively erasing one or some of them is even possible. The
human brain does not handle memory the way computers do it.
And storage in the human brain is not a literal recording of
perceived stimuli in exact chronological order at set
locations.</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div dir="ltr">So I am not at all worried
about someone forcing me to have my memory retained or erased.
And it will be a long, long time if ever before any police
department or court of law can interrogate anyone's thoughts
or intentions directly. </div>
<div dir="ltr"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div dir="ltr">Making laws without knowing
what the tech will look like is way premature at this time.
And any discussion of this topic belongs in the category of
Science Fiction at this time. Though, a general statement of a
doctrine of the inalienable human right to freedom of thought
should be under consideration right now. That debate is long
overdue. <br clear="none">
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div dir="ltr">Like ChatGPT and other very
limited AI,this new tech is being vastly overhyped. If you
want to know whether you can trust what an "expert" says
publicly, look at what they are trying to sell now. This
expert is selling a book; others are selling half-baked or raw
tech toys. Meta is selling its version of immersive VR
hardware and services. </div>
<div dir="ltr"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div dir="ltr">Frankly at this point, I am
totally not impressed. And totally not afraid of this new
tech. This is not science so far; these are just the newest
expensive toys and entertainment services. Any other claims
would be fraudulent at this point. </div>
<div dir="ltr"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div dir="ltr">-- Bob Primak </div>
<div dir="ltr"><br clear="none">
</div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
</div>
<div id="yiv3339058584yahoo_quoted_9696856857" class="yiv3339058584yahoo_quoted">
<div style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
<div> On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 09:10:38 PM EDT, Drew King
(<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:dking65@kingconsulting.us" target="_blank" href="mailto:dking65@kingconsulting.us" class="yiv3339058584moz-txt-link-abbreviated">dking65@kingconsulting.us</a>)
<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:dking65@kingconsulting.us" target="_blank" href="mailto:dking65@kingconsulting.us" class="yiv3339058584moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"><dking65@kingconsulting.us></a> wrote: </div>
<div><br clear="none">
</div>
<div>
<div id="yiv3339058584">
<div>
<div>Hmm,<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
You are using a galaxy tab s8+<br clear="none">
I'm using a Galaxy tab s7+<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
I did get a pop-up window with an opportunity to
subscribe. Only in the upper left-hand corner was a
close button, and then I was able to read the whole
article.. I think that the Boston globe will limit
your reading ability to a few articles per month..<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Drew </div>
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<div id="yiv3339058584yqt86134" class="yiv3339058584yqt0338613749">
<div class="yiv3339058584gmail_quote">
<div>On March 19, 2023 8:46:08 PM EDT, David Lees
<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:joeoptics@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:joeoptics@gmail.com" class="yiv3339058584moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"><joeoptics@gmail.com></a> wrote:</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);padding-left:1ex;" class="yiv3339058584gmail_quote">
<div>
<div>Peter,
<div>You might want to summarize, because I
don't think people without a paid Globe
subscription can read it.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<div>David Lees <br clear="none">
Tab S8+</div>
</div>
<br clear="none">
<div class="yiv3339058584gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="yiv3339058584gmail_attr">On Sun,
Mar 19, 2023, 8:31 PM <<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:palbin24@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:palbin24@yahoo.com" class="yiv3339058584moz-txt-link-freetext">palbin24@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote:<br clear="none">
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;" class="yiv3339058584gmail_quote"><br clear="none">
<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/03/14/opinion/if-algorithms-can-read-our-minds-can-we-preserve-freedom-thought/" class="yiv3339058584moz-txt-link-freetext">https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/03/14/opinion/if-algorithms-can-read-our-minds-can-we-preserve-freedom-thought/</a><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Peter<br clear="none">
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