<html><head></head><body><div class="ydp30e441ecyahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><div></div>
</div><blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;"><div class="ydp30e441ecyahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><font color="#440062"> Having detected a racial disparity statistically, rather than taking steps to help poor kids move up, they sought to correct the statistic by keeping affluent kids down.</font> </div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div></div></blockquote><div class="ydp30e441ecyahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">This is more and more common in public schools nationwide. There have also been complaints about "inclusion" of students with learning/behavior issues and disabilities in "mainstream" classrooms. Every class must now be held back until the slowest students finally do (or don't) learn the lessons. </div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">The decline in Big City reading, English and Math test scores (or the elimination of all testing) is one measure of this decline in public education in this country. "Teaching to the test" shows an example of the strong form of <span><span style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">Goodhart's Law, as may have been noted previously in this conversation. </span></span></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">I am all in favor of being as inclusive as possible, but there is a difference between "reasonable accommodation" vs. chasing the faster-learning students out of the public school system, or forever damaging their education and career opportunities.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">This has nothing to do with <i>de facto</i> segregation, allegations of systemic bias or affirmative action. Those are different, though somewhat related, issues. </div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">-- Bob Primak</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div>
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On Saturday, July 15, 2023 at 08:11:56 AM EDT, JOHN M BROWN <mit69@icloud.com> wrote:
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<div><div id="yiv3019479541"><div>This item, "<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/07/14/metro/cambridge-schools-divided-over-middle-school-math/?et_rid=696624770&s_campaign=todaysheadlines:newsletter">Cambridge schools are divided over middle school algebra,</a>” in the Globe may be an illustration of the strong form of Goodhart’s Law (… or, at any rate, of the law of unintended consequences) as applied to education -<div><br clear="none"></div><div><i>"The district’s aim was to reduce disparities between low-income children of color, who weren’t often represented in such courses, and their more affluent peers. But some families and educators argue the decision has had the opposite effect, limiting advanced math to students whose parents can afford to pay for private lessons, like the popular after-school program Russian Math, or find other options for their kids, like Udengaard is doing." </i></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Regardless, the response to the measured problem was a cop out. Having detected a racial disparity statistically, rather than taking steps to help poor kids move up, they sought to correct the statistic by keeping affluent kids down. </div><div><br clear="none"></div><div> John B</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div id="yiv3019479541yqt17176" class="yiv3019479541yqt1655706626"><div><br clear="none"><div><br clear="none"><div>On Jul 10, 2023, at 1:29 PM, Jon Dreyer <jon@jondreyer.org> wrote:</div><br clear="none" class="yiv3019479541Apple-interchange-newline"><div>
</div></div></div></div></div><div id="yiv3019479541yqt26059" class="yiv3019479541yqt1655706626"><div><div><p>By the time I got through the first few paragraphs, I remembered
that, over a decade ago, I saw the danger of what he calls
"overfitting" in education and coined what I called "the implicit
motto of education reform":</p>
<blockquote><p><i>If you can't measure what you value, value what you can
measure.</i></p>
</blockquote><p>So I was not surprised to see education as the first on the list
of examples of the the danger of overfitting in section 3.</p><p>I'd not read of Goodhart's Law, either the weak or strong forms,
but I had discovered the idea. It seems increasingly important to
keep in mind as technology makes it ever easier to measure things.
A few examples I don't think I saw in the article are measuring
executive performance by measuring quarterly financials or
measuring software engineers by lines of code.<br clear="none">
</p><p>-- <br clear="none">
</p><p style="font-family:Times, serif;">
Jon "Measure Twice, Gut Once" Dreyer<br clear="none">
<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.passionatelycurious.com/">Math Tutor/Computer
Science Tutor</a><br clear="none">
<a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://music.jondreyer.com/">Jon Dreyer Music</a>
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<div class="yiv3019479541moz-cite-prefix"><br clear="none"></div><div class="yiv3019479541moz-cite-prefix"><br clear="none"></div><div class="yiv3019479541moz-cite-prefix"><br clear="none"></div><div class="yiv3019479541moz-cite-prefix">On 7/10/23 8:40 AM, Harry Forsdick
wrote:<br clear="none">
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<div style="font-family:verdana, sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(11,83,148);" class="yiv3019479541gmail_default">Interesting
use of ML/AI:</div>
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<div style="" class="yiv3019479541gmail_default"><span style="color:rgb(11,83,148);font-family:verdana, sans-serif;">Too
much efficiency makes everything worse: overfitting and
the strong version of Goodhart's law</span></div>
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<ul><li><span style="color:rgb(11,83,148);font-family:verdana, sans-serif;"><a rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="https://sohl-dickstein.github.io/2022/11/06/strong-Goodhart.html" class="yiv3019479541moz-txt-link-freetext">https://sohl-dickstein.github.io/2022/11/06/strong-Goodhart.html</a></span></li></ul>
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<div style="font-family:verdana, sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(11,83,148);" class="yiv3019479541gmail_default">--
Harry</div>
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